Israel Lebanon Conflict Thread

[DudeAsInCool]

So far, the Israeli public has remained overwhelmingly supportive of this second Lebanon war.

I've read lots of articles recently about Israeli's and Jews in America who are against the war.

[KiwiCoromandel]

Concern mounts that this is a war Israel is not going to win.......

AS HEZBOLLAH'S missiles continue to rain across the Galilee, the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, faces growing concerns that Israel may be on the verge of losing the war.

In a blunt televised pledge on Monday night, Mr Olmert warned that a ceasefire would be premature and insisted Israel would continue fighting to eliminate Hezbollah's long-term military threat.

Unlike his first national speech on the conflict two weeks ago, which paved the way for diplomatic efforts, this address sounded like a fresh declaration of hostilities.

But the slowness of the campaign and the inability to prevent Hezbollah firing Katyusha rockets has forced Israel to flip the traditional course of war in which combat precedes diplomacy.

The prominent Israeli analyst Zeev Schiff , whose daily commentaries are allegedly delivered in Arabic each morning to Hezbollah's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, yesterday accused the Government of failing to achieve its aims and mishandling the campaign.

As Schiff pointed out in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, in the first Lebanon war in 1982, Israeli ground troops had seized all of southern Lebanon within 48 hours. This time, it has taken three weeks to defeat a handful of Hezbollah strongholds within a few kilometres of the border.

Schiff predicted the war would last "much longer" and the ground campaign would have to be rapidly expanded to pave the way for the entry of an international force.

Amid fears of repeating the errors of its ill-fated, large-scale invasion in 1982, Israel has insisted its ground incursions did not target Hezbollah's rocket launchers and were limited to preventing cross-border attacks.

Although Israel says it has reduced Hezbollah's long-range missile capability, killed several leaders and reduced the group's presence at the border, its air campaign has not ended the threat to residents in northern Israel. On Sunday, Hezbollah fired a record 140 rockets across the Galillee.

The advancement of the ground campaign as far as the Litani River would return Israel to the security zone it occupied until 2000 and mark a serious reversal from the Government's initial announcement that there would be no big ground invasion.

From the outset Israel has repeatedly insisted that the war will take an unspecified number of "weeks". It mantained that line yesterday as the war neared the one-month mark.

While Israel has been careful to avoid fears that this campaign will be associated with the ill-fated first Lebanon war, there are increasing comparisons with the 1973 Yom Kippur war, which caught the Israeli Army off-guard, caused heavy losses and lasted about three weeks. That war was perceived to have ended in a stalemate and restored confidence to Israel's Arab neighbours after their resounding defeat in the Six Days War in 1967.

After the 1973 war, the army's chief-of-staff, David Elazar, was forced to resign. In recent days, the present chief-of-staff, Dan Halutz, has been photographed attending hospital for abdominal pains. If the war ends now, these images may come to signify a much deeper and more comprehensive weakness.

source:AP

image:AP:Power of prayer … an Israeli soldier at an artillery position in northern Israel pauses to pray.

[KiwiCoromandel]

Raid a failed rescue bid......

BAALBEK: A dozen figures, their faces masked, ran through the darkened wards of the Dar al-Hekma hospital shouting the name of one of the Israeli soldiers whose abduction on July 12 triggered the war. The commandos used shotguns to blast open locked doors.

The motive behind Israel's raid deep in east Lebanon came to light yesterday. The 200-man force led by Colonel Nitsan Alon, former commander of the army's elite special force, stormed a suspected Hezbollah hideout to rescue one of their kidnapped soldiers who they believed was being treated at a hospital used by the militia's leaders.

The raid in the town of Baalbek, 100km into Lebanon, was the most northern ground attack by Israeli forces since the start of the crisis and marked the 15th special operation of the three-week war.

Seventeen civilians, including a Syrian, were killed during the raid, 10km from the Syrian border. The Israeli Defence Force says it also seized five "significant figures" from the Shia militia. There was no word on whether Israel rescued either of its captured soldiers - Sergeant Ehud Goldwasser, 31, and Sergeant Eldad Regev, 26.

But it did seize a lot of documents, computers, data disks, maps and radio communication equipment from the hospital.

Other units were dropped by helicopter at three more sites in an operation to capture one of Israel's most wanted men, the Hezbollah military commander in the Bekaa Valley. The operation began just after 10.30pm on Tuesday with a ferocious aerial bombardment severing roads leading to suspected Hezbollah safe houses around Baalbek.

Minutes later, Apache helicopters could be heard flying low over outlying villages such as al-Jamaliyeh, targeting a number of cars and at least two houses, as rocket fire lit up the night sky.

Awad Mouri said he saw two helicopters land in a parched field near the modern hospital, which is run by an Iranian charity. One group of commandos charged towards the entrance firing shoulder-held rocket launchers, while another skirted the compound, climbed over a low wall and shot their way through a back door, hurling in stun grenades.

Mr Mouri, 42, a caretaker, said Israeli forces systematically searched every room, taking away a number of documents. "They were clearly looking for something specific," he said, adding that the hospital had been evacuated earlier in the week. Upstairs in the CAT scan room and two adjoining offices there was evidence that a number of people had been sleeping rough.

Two bombed-out vehicles in the carpark were still smouldering 12 hours after the attack. The ground was littered with empty shell casings from Israeli assault rifles, evidence of what locals say was a five-hour gunfight.

Ninety metres from the hospital, a bomb had punched a hole in the roof of a home, killing the five people inside. They were believed to be Hezbollah gunmen who ambushed the Israeli commandos as they retreated.

Another target was the home of the Mayor of al-Jamaliyeh, Hussein Jamaleddin. His 17-year-son, Ali, and brother, Awad, 60, were killed, and three other relatives. Mr Jamaleddin denied his family was linked to Hezbollah, as he helped to load the corpses into the shovel of a mechanical digger for the short journey to the cemetery.

Israel's main target was Hussein Nasrallah, who shares a surname with, but is no relation to, the leader of Hezbollah. He controls the east of Lebanon.

One of the five men taken away by Israeli troops has that name, but locals insist the man owns a grocery shop and is a cousin of the military commander.

His 17-year-old son, Bilal, and three other relatives were also flown across the border for interrogation. The Israeli Defence Force has yet to reveal their identities.

The commandos reportedly freed one captive just as they were about to board their helicopters. The 13-year-old son of the man that the Israelis believe is Hezbollah's military chief was sent back to the village with leaflets warning residents not to help the militia.

source:The Times:AFP

image:AFP:Top-secret mission: Israeli commandos in action during the hospital raid in Baalbek.

[KiwiCoromandel]

Olmert asks UN for 'real' soldiers.....

ISRAELI Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has warned the UN not to send a "Dad's Army" of peacekeepers to enforce a ceasefire in southern Lebanon and insisted on a combat-trained garrison of up to 15,000 soldiers to monitor Hezbollah guerillas.

Mr Olmert's demands came on the same day Hezbollah fired a record 215 rockets across the border, mocking his earlier claim that the Israeli military had destroyed the militant group's infrastructure during three weeks of fighting.

Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos last night said Syria had promised to use all of its influence on Hezbollah in a bid to bring an end to fighting.

Mr Moratinos was speaking after meeting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and other senior officials as part of an EU bid to end the conflict.

Rockets continued to rain down yesterday on largely abandoned northern Israeli communities and the city of Haifa, prompting Israeli airstrikes against Beirut's southern suburbs and a missile attack on the border village of Taibeh.

More than 10,000 Israeli troops also made steady gains from the Lebanese border towards the Litani River, 30km north.

Israel is planning to establish a buffer zone 6-8km inside Lebanon - an area comparable to the territory it controlled until withdrawing its forces in 2000, ending an 18-year occupation.

Mr Olmert said "no limits" had been put on the offensive.

"We are not going to fight all the way to Beirut, but as for the rest, I don't think I have to announce my plans," he told Le Monde newspaper.

Military planners have vowed to deploy thousands more troops inside Lebanon if necessary.

Muslim leaders and foreign ministers yesterday queued up to join the stabilisation force, which is expected to take shape within a fortnight. Some also condemned the UN, arguing it had done little to stop the fighting.

"We must show preparedness to contribute forces for peacekeeping operations under the United Nations banner," Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said before the start of the annual Organisation of the Islamic Conference.

"Malaysia is ready to do that. No end seems to be in sight."

Stressing a need for urgent international intervention, Pakistani Foreign Minister Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri said: "We don't want a clash of civilisations, but all over the Muslim world a very negative feeling is arising in the streets."

Mr Olmert said he would welcome the contribution of Arab soldiers. He called in particular on Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Turkey to offer help.

"Anyone (is welcome who) is determined to fulfil that mission, of stopping violence against innocent Israelis from Lebanon and disarming this murderous organisation Hezbollah, which is the long arm of Iran," he said.

"It has to be made up of armies, not of retirees, of real soldiers, not of pensioners who have come to spend leisurely months in south Lebanon, but, rather, an army with combat units that is prepared to implement the UN resolution.

"I think it has to have about 15,000 soldiers."

Mr Olmert slammed the performance of the UN Interim Force In Lebanon (UNIFIL) and demanded an invigorated stabilisation force.

"It was very useless and very helpless," he said.

"Did you hear of any particular efforts of the United Nations UNIFIL force in the south of Lebanon to prevent the attacks against Israel in the first place?"

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora last night claimed 900 Lebanese, mostly civilians, had been killed and another 3000 injured.

He said that close to a million people had been displaced since fighting broke out 23 days ago. Israel estimates that more than 500,000 of its citizens have left their homes, or are taking shelter in underground bunkers.

source:AP

[DudeAsInCool]

Iran: We supplied Zelzal-2 to Hizbullah

Iran admitted for the first time on Friday that it did indeed supply long-range Zelzal-2 missiles to Hizbullah.

Secretary-general of the "Intifada conference" Mohtashami Pur told an Iranian newspaper that Iran transferred the missiles so that they could be used to defend Lebanon, Channel 1 reported.

The extent of Iran's intimate involvement in Hizbullah attacks is starting to emerge.

Source: Jerusalem Times

I thought that the Peace letter the Iranian President wrote to Bush was a crock of shit when I read it--he's just another warmonger with blood on his hands

[method77]

Israeli strike on farm kills 33 workers

At least 33 farm workers have been killed by Israeli rockets as they loaded fruit onto lorries at a farm on Lebanon's border with Syria.

Many of those killed are said to be Kurds or Syrians. At least 20 people were wounded. The farm is near the village of Qaa in the northern tip of the eastern Bekaa Valley.

The death toll is one of the highest in a single strike since a 24-day-old Israeli assault against Hezbollah in Lebanon. The deadliest strike killed 54 civilians, mostly children, in the village of Qana last week.

Earlier, Hezbollah guerrillas detonated roadside bombs and fired anti-tank rockets and assault rifles at Israeli forces occupying seven small enclaves in the south. Three Israeli soldiers were killed while four died yesterday.

BBC

[KiwiCoromandel]

enemy combatant??

[DudeAsInCool]

A top Saudi Sunni cleric, whose ideas inspired Osama bin Laden, issued a religious edict Saturday disavowing the Shi'ite guerrilla group Hizbullah, evidence that a rift remained among Muslims over the fighting in Lebanon.

Hizbullah, which translates as "the party of God," is actually "the party of the devil," said Sheik Safar al-Hawali, whose radical views made the al-Qaida leader one of his followers in the past.

"Don't pray for Hizbullah," he said in the fatwa posted on his Web site.

The edict, which reflects the historical stand of strict Wahhabi doctrine viewing Shi'ite Muslims as heretics, follows a similar fatwa from another popular Saudi cleric Sheik Abdullah bin Jibreen two weeks into the conflict with Israel.

Read more

[DudeAsInCool]

...

[Malicious Intent]

10 people have been killed in a barrage of Hezbollah rocket strikes

Eyewitnesses said the barrage had lasted more than 15 minutes, with Kfar Giladi bearing the brunt of the fire.

The border town of Kiryat Shemona was also hit.

"The scene is very difficult, it can be described as a battlefield," Shimon Abutbul, a rescue worker at the scene of the Kfar Giladi attack, told the Associated Press news agency. "There was a lot of blood."

Hezbollah has fired more than 3,000 rockets into northern Israel since the conflict began.

Israeli artillery responded with heavy fire across the border into southern Lebanon.

In other developments:

* Israel said it had detained a Hezbollah militant involved in the capture of two Israeli soldiers which triggered the crisis

* The Israeli military said two reservists had been killed in separate clashes with Hezbollah fighters in southern Lebanon. They were the first reservists to die in the offensive

* Israeli air strikes targeted roads in Lebanon's eastern Bekaa Valley, virtually cutting it off from the outside world

* Positions in the region held by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a pro-Syrian group, were also attacked. The group said one person had been killed.

* Three Chinese UN peacekeepers are injured in crossfire between Israeli troops and Hezbollah fighters

* UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has held telephone conversations with US President George W Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin about how to secure maximum support for the draft UN resolution. He is also due to speak to French President Jacques Chirac

[Malicious Intent]

Dp Israeli Ambassador tries to defend Isreali policy on Channel 4 news.

[DudeAsInCool]

Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To Self

WASHINGTON, DC—In a decisive 1–0 decision Monday, President Bush voted to grant the president the constitutional power to grant himself additional powers.

President Bush announces announcement of the new power-granting announcement.

"As president, I strongly believe that my first duty as president is to support and serve the president," Bush said during a televised address from the East Room of the White House shortly after signing his executive order. "I promise the American people that I will not abuse this new power, unless it becomes necessary to grant myself the power to do so at a later time."

Read more

[method77]

unbelievable

americans just stand around and watch all this

[DudeAsInCool]

unbelievable

americans just stand around and watch all this

It was the Onion

[Redneck4sure]

It was the Onion

I was hoping it was true!

[Malicious Intent]

This is a really good documentary about the troubles in the area in general.

Make up your own minds on the bias, but it should be watched. It is in the Google most watched list at the moment. It tackles the issue of press coverage, such as CNN journalists who are banned from saying "illegal jewish settlements on occupied territory" and have to say "israeli neighbourhoods" instead.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...123714384920696

It is 1:20 long, but easy to follow and broken down into parts.

[Malicious Intent]

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/smarty.swf

[method77]

This is a really good documentary about the troubles in the area in general.

Make up your own minds on the bias, but it should be watched. It is in the Google most watched list at the moment. It tackles the issue of press coverage, such as CNN journalists who are banned from saying "illegal jewish settlements on occupied territory" and have to say "israeli neighbourhoods" instead.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...123714384920696

It is 1:20 long, but easy to follow and broken down into parts.

I want to dl it but the keepvid thing does not work on that vid :(

[Malicious Intent]

It is probably right up your street Method. I checked Youtube, but it isn't there.

Is your connection not good enough to watch it live? Or what about VideoDownloader Firefox plugin? Not sure if you want to go to the extent of downloading new software for it.

[method77]

I don't use firefox and my connection is fine. I just want to keep it for later use and illegal distribution

[Malicious Intent]

[method77]

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

[DudeAsInCool]

An interesting sidenote:

The Winds of War, The Sands of Time - Part I

Given the massive media coverage of the Iraq War, and the pop-culture fashion of being opposed to it, one could be led to think that this is one of the most major wars ever fought. Therein lies the proof that we are actually living in the most peaceful time ever in human history.

Just a few decades ago, wars and genocides killing upwards of a million people were commonplace, with more than one often underway at once. Remember these?

Second Congo War (1998-2002) : 3.6 million deaths

Iran-Iraq War (1980-88) : 1.5 million deaths

Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan (1979-89) : 1 million deaths

Khmer Rouge (1975-79) : 1.7 million deaths from genocide

Bangladesh Liberation War (1971) : 1.5 million deaths from genocide

Vietnam War (1957-75) : 2.4 million deaths

Korean War (1950-53) : 3 million deaths

This list is my no means complete, as wars killing fewer than one million people are not even listed. At least 30 other wars killed over 20,000 people each, between 1945 and 1989.

Read more

[Malicious Intent]

Good link Method. It is actually where I got the Snow interview from. Looking back I should have posted the whole lot :)

I look forward to Part II Dude. The Neo-cons believe that the peace is the world is thanks to American policing. It is interesting to hear the economic theory. Another one is the no two nuclear powers have ever gone to war with each other, except the Falklands. I prefer the economic one.

But how do we translate that into extending peace. Is there war because people are poor, or are people poor because of war?

[method77]

a MUST watch video

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galloway