Israel Lebanon Conflict Thread

[Malicious Intent]

I'm struggling to get my head around the complex issues of this, but what I do know is these pictures need to stop:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_...tion/html/1.stm

[DudeAsInCool]

I dont think it was helpful that the Palestinians elected a radical group to their government...as far as Im concerned you get what you pay for

[Malicious Intent]

They said Israel would not stop its offensive until Hizbullah was forced behind the Litani river, 20 miles north of the border - creating a new buffer zone in a region that saw Israeli occupation between 1982 and 2000. Reservists in northern Israel were ordered to report for duty.

"It's possible that in the coming days our ground operations will increase," Brigadier General Alon Friedman told the Maariv newspaper. "We have many forces, we will carry out a massive recruitment of reserves and it's possible that many more forces ... will reach the border in the next few days."

The Lebanese defence minister said Lebanon's army was ready to defend the country against any land invasion by Israel. Elias al-Murr, when asked if the Lebanese army would fight alongside Hizbullah against any land incursion by Israel, told al-Arabiya: "Our constitutional duty is to defend Lebanon as a Lebanese army. This is our role."

I can't think of any other ingredients needed for a full scale war.

[DudeAsInCool]

All is not well over there. I've been reading about Middle East problems from the day I was born. If people really wanted peace, then they would have it. They don't.

Now admittedly, I'm not an expert--at the same time, I've never really chosen sides. But this time, my sentiments are the same as Thoughts, Raves & Outright Lies

http://bigstarlet.wordpress.com/2006/07/20...ary-on-this-so/

[Malicious Intent]

I dont think it was helpful that the Palestinians elected a radical group to their government...as far as Im concerned you get what you pay for

I don't have the answer for Israel. Bombs are landing on their cities and they have a right to take action against that.

However, that doesn't make any sense. Is it OK to bomb your house or your family because there may be supporters of the worlds best known extremist living nearby? After all, Americans voted for him, you get what you pay for.

Besides, isn't the government anti-Hizbullah?

[DudeAsInCool]

Is it OK to bomb your house or your family because there may be supporters of the worlds best known extremist living nearby?

No--it isn't.

After all, Americans voted for him, you get what you pay for.

I'm one of the minority who doesn't believe that Bush was fairly elected--in either election. As a result, I feel like the poor families you mentioined above...I am paying for this crap and I dont like it one bit.

[KiwiCoromandel]

I dont think it was helpful that the Palestinians elected a radical group to their government...as far as Im concerned you get what you pay for...

Perhaps the palestinians don`t see Hezbollah as "radical"...perhaps it`s just the west that has that view....the palestinians didn`t elect Hezbollah to power in their government to be "helpful"....they elected them because they (the palestinians) wanted Hezbollah there for very good reasons...clearly, this is the view of the voters that put them there....it`s not about the palestinians making decisions that are "helpful" for us..they are making these decisions for themselves..or else, Hezbollah would not be there.....in terms of the USA`s wholesale support for israel, and the military actions that israel is being allowed to undertake by the US at the moment.....well...you get what you pay for when you have a sector in your country that is as politically and economically powerful as the jewish community is in the good ol`USA...... :) :)

[DudeAsInCool]

I have no idea what they see - but I do not see the Hezbollah as a group that wants peace. Tell me why you think Hezbollah is justified in doing what they are doing. Has there been any gesture to return the soldiers? Basically you have another bunch of religious nuts who dont care if they throw the whole world in to a war - therefore, I have no respect for them and could care less what happens to them.

***

Here is the Rants and Raves summary...

"Anyway, Arafat passes on, and Abbas (among others) is able to negotiate for a piece of land near their ancestral area they can finally call their own. After 50 years, they can settle down and have a home.

They are now in a position to pursue a healthy economy, provide good schools, and build a healthy, growing country.

What do they do?

They elect a set of “saviors” who take advantage of their plight in search of their one true goal: complete annihilation of the Israeli state.

The “saviors” openly sponsor some Hezbollah-orchestrated kidnappings of Israeli soldiers…

And the country cries to Allah when its surroundings are bombed back to the stone ages. Yet again."

[DudeAsInCool]

Off to dinner - hopefully someone will intervene if the boards are thrown in to a world war while im gone :)

[KiwiCoromandel]

everybody wants a place to call their own dude....apparently the israelis just won`t allow that to happen for anybody else...that, also apparently, is one of the reasons why hesbollah exists...i had the privilege of meeting the new palestinian authority representative in nz (their official ambassador..hell of a nice guy..no different to any of us) at a lecture that i have just attended on the causes and effects of current actions and issues in the middle east....in his view the palestinians have had terrorism practised on them for years by the israelis..not only by hesbollah...he spoke of hesbollah and his relationship with that organisation...i`ll go through his notes and the speech that he gave and post it later dude as this debate and thread develops....i`m sitting here listening to talkback radio on the subject now dude...30% pro israeli actions....70% against....and my friend....i`m not afraid to say that i`m in that 70%....the rants and raves summary doesn`t look any different to the same tired old pro-israeli statements currently being made by the american government dude....sorry mate...:) :)

[Malicious Intent]

I don't have any time for Hizbullah either, but how many innocent people is it OK to kill in an attempt to root those people out? Israel 's reaction is creating a humanitarian crisis.

That rants and raves guy needs to check his facts. I haven't been looking into this for long, but I know that Hizbullah are political opponents of the majority of the Lebonesse government and their funding came from Iran during the last Israeli occupation of the area.

You can't blame the local population for that.

I've read that Hizbullah hold anything between 1 and 4 seats in the government, but I don't know out of how many. Given that the British National Party (who's leader says the Muslim population is so large because the Qu'ran encourages rape) holds more seats than that in the UK, they could be considered moderate. A number of news reports have called the governement "pro-west", although I've found little other information on that front.

EDIT:

The BBC makes them sound more important politically:

It now has an important presence in the Lebanese parliament and has built broad support by providing social services and health care. It also has an influential TV station, al-Manar.

[method77]

the rest of the world is here dude...

Now, my honest opinion is fairly simple.

Both sides have fucked up over the years. When I say 'over the years' I mean thousands of years.

That region has always been a religion mix up and noone understands the other side. Even the Bible refers to 'the others' like they are dirt. It's not a simple matter that you can solve in an instant and all that "give me back my soldier" or "give me back my people in exchange my soldier" is all crap to say the least.

The current US, Israel and Palestinian goverments are not smart enough to think of a solution (in fact, they are probably the stupidest people alive but have ultra connections to be elected) and the EU, China and Russian goverments have too much money invested there to speak up against anyone.

Perrez and Arafat where smart and came close but the Israel and US election caught up with them. Clinton came close with the help of those moderate leaders but then Monica fot on the scene.

Until next time, the same old shit. Killings.

[method77]

...but if you ask me for a percentage of who's fault it is then I'd say 60-40 Israel fault

[KiwiCoromandel]

"Basically you have another bunch of religious nuts who dont care if they throw the whole world in to a war - therefore, I have no respect for them and could care less what happens to them.".....

you could be talking about the current US government dude....where is the diffence between the actions of the US government in Iraq (and elsewhere around the globe) and the actions of hesbollah..answer..there isn`t any difference..both are using a means to an end and don`t care who else gets hurt in the process.....do you know what really sickens me about all this???.....the fucking gross hypocracy of the west.....hesbollah actually runs a large and successful social welfare network in that region and delivers services to those who need them (and god or allah knows there`s plenty who do)......what the fuck is the west doing??....whatever it takes for the west to secure geopolitical control over middle eastern oil reserves....it`s absolutely disgraceful...there are more than 2 sides to this story, that`s for sure.....

[DudeAsInCool]

I have been highly critical of the Bush regime before they even got elected. And I will be critical of the Hezbellah because they are assholes, too. I'm glad Hezbellah provides social services for its people. Bin Laden did for his people as well--and screw Bin Laden, too. Evil is evil, and you cant cloak it with the good things one does. Bush, Bin Laden, Hezbellah--its evil religious politics and they can all kiss my ass. As long as these factions exist, so will wars.

Now if Israel had started the most recent crisis, my criticism would go the other way, but its clear they did not. I have plenty of misgivings about Israel, too--but not this go around.

I think Method's viewpoint is probably the most accurate one--he's closer to it than I am.

[KiwiCoromandel]

dude....those are things that i believe to be true, or at least representative of another opinion which has been put to me by someone with a different viewpoint......and i stated them for that reason...not for any desired effect or outcome in terms of your position or thoughts on this highly emotive issue..... :)

"but nice people dont kidnap people-and this dude will not ever respect anyone who does"..good to hear mate..this will of course include the FBI, CIA and the israeli secret service..the MOSSAD?....all agencies guilty of the same thing...carrying out illegal arrests and kidnappings on foreign soil.... :)

[DudeAsInCool]

"but nice people dont kidnap people-and this dude will not ever respect anyone who does"..good to hear mate..this will of course include the FBI, CIA and the israeli secret service..the MOSSAD?....all agencies guilty of the same thing...carrying out illegal arrests and kidnappings on foreign soil.... :)

what do you think, i give those assholes an exemption? i dont get it...oh, i see, you are agreeing with me, but expanding the definition

[KiwiCoromandel]

no, i don`t think that at all dude......what i`m saying is that the actions hesbollah stand accused of by the west and by israel are no different to similar activities carried out all over the world every day by western security and military forces.....i didn`t say that you condoned any of them..i just have a different opinion than you do... :)

[KiwiCoromandel]

Stop laughing, it's US policy that's the joke......

ST PETERSBURG, Tuesday. The President of the United States, unplugged.

GWB: Hey Blair, howya doin'? Like your tie. You British do stripes real good.

TB: Thank you so much.

GWB: Not a problem. Now gimme your take on this Middle East shit.

TB: Well, you see, you've got Hezbollah …

GWB: Remind me, Blair. Them the Jewish guys or the Islamic guys?

TB: They're the bad guys.

GWB: Got it. Who's the chick over there with the hot boobies?

TB: Do you mean the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel?

GWB: Kraut, huh? Now here's what we do with the Middle East thing: the Israelis get two weeks to kick ass, let the UN screw up, then Condi fixes a ceasefire. Sound good to you, Blair?

TB: Just what I was thinking myself, actually.

GWB: Done deal. But, hey, gotta get back to Washington. Some serious stuff goin' down with Cheney and Rummy tonight.

TB: Iraq?

GWB: Nope. New York Yankees playin' the Boston Red Sox. Got $100 on the Sox with Dick.

TB: I hope that microphone is not turned on, George.

POOR bloody Lebanon. Three thousand years ago the great cities of Byblos, Sidon and Tyre were at the civilised centre of the known universe, their Phoenician traders commanding the Mediterranean to Spain and beyond, venturing as far north as the tin mines of Cornwall.

In the centuries since, what we know as modern Lebanon has been raped and pillaged by the predators of history: Persians, Greeks, Romans, Armenians, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, the French, the Syrians. Now, not long recovered from a hideous civil war, a fragile Lebanese democracy reels beneath the hammer blows of the Israelis.

George Bush, Condoleezza Rice and, for that matter, John Howard, can bleat forever about Israel's right to defend itself, but we are witnessing an obscenity. On all sides. The targeted Israeli air strike which murders children in a Beirut suburb is as much a crime against humanity as an indiscriminate Hezbollah rocket crashing into downtown Haifa. There are no gradations of immorality. It is total.

Bush's buffoonery in St Petersburg - manhandling Merkel, dropping the "shit" word - were funny or offensive, depending on your take on these things. But there is no humour in the fact that American policy in the Middle East now lies in ruins. The neo-conservative fantasy of a swift war in Iraq magically spreading peace and democracy throughout the region has brought nothing but catastrophe.

Sooner or later, when Hezbollah has killed enough Israeli civilians, and the Israelis have killed enough Lebanese, some sort of ceasefire will happen. But new hatreds will pile upon the old. The seeds are sown. Next, the whirlwind.

source:smh.com.au

[KiwiCoromandel]

Israel falls into a dangerous trap.......

With the wisdom of Solomon, Israeli leaders would have held off responding to provocation, writes Akiva Eldar.

THERE is an assortment of telltale signs of the Iranian-Syrian scheme, executed by Hamas and Hezbollah, to ignite the Arab-Israeli arena. All of the signs converge on the G8 gathering in Russia. It is hard to tell which is more serious - that the political and military leadership of Israel saw the signs and disregarded them, or that it did not see them at all.

more........

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/israel-...3166583059.html

[DudeAsInCool]

no, i don`t think that at all dude......what i`m saying is that the actions hesbollah stand accused of by the west and by israel are no different to similar activities carried out all over the world every day by western security and military forces.....i didn`t say that you condoned any of them..i just have a different opinion than you do... :)

Well, what is your opinion then? I'm going to take the moral highground here - hebollah and the west do not get a pass from me when they do wrong. They're all thugs and killers and should rot in hell, and probably wil

[Malicious Intent]

If the moral high ground is to indiscrimately bomb civilian housing, then I'm ready to go to hell.

Nobody here is supporting Hezbollah, but Israel's reaction has been completely disproportionate.

When the victims turn to get their revenge on losing everything they own and family members, I'm sure the rants and raves guy will be there to say they should have given peace a chance last time Israel left the area, but clearly they don't want peace.

[method77]

Don't say that noone here supports Hesbollah. I just said I'm neutral although I agree that Israel is overeacting here.

Don't forget that some people from the middleast might be reading this thread and they support Hesbolah.

[method77]

no, i don`t think that at all dude......what i`m saying is that the actions hesbollah stand accused of by the west and by israel are no different to similar activities carried out all over the world every day by western security and military forces.....i didn`t say that you condoned any of them..i just have a different opinion than you do... :)

Nice one Kiwidude. I missed reading it the first time

[DudeAsInCool]

If the moral high ground is to indiscrimately bomb civilian housing, then I'm ready to go to hell.

they are all killers and thugs--my pt is that Israel didnt start it this time