UK vs. France

[Malicious Intent]

For those that dont know what I'm talking about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4090274.stm

Basically, thanks to Margaret Thatcher, the EU gives £3bn back to the UK each year.

President Chirac says that is outdated, a relic from the past. He thinks that the UK (i.e England who pays it all) can now afford for the EU to keep the money and the EU needs it to give to the 10 new EU entrants.

Apparently, the rest of the EU agrees.

I just can not see Frances POV.

They say that the UK are rich countries, so can afford it. But we should not forget that we are a success ATM despite the best attempts by the French. We are losing all sorts of production jobs to the French, as their goverenment is a stakeholder in lots of industries and makes various investments (not subsidises, that would be illegal).

We work more hours for more days than the French.

Even with the rebate, the French net contribution to the EU is less than 70% of what the UK as a whole gives.

It comes across to me that the French want us to subsidise their lazy liberal lifestyles. Well I dont go to work each day so that a Frenchman doesn't have to.

The whole arguement brings up important issues of how EU money is spent, like the minor problem of 40% of EU money being given to the 2% of people who are farmers. Not to mention all the other projects that are a complete waste of money. Tony Blair, very generously IMO, has offered to give up the rebate if we can sort out how the EU spends the moeny.

The French, who are the biggest gainers from the inefficiencies, wont even discuss it.

So where is the anti-english sentiment I'm hearing about come from?

[method77]

I mostly agree with you on this but understand that every country is looking to give the less possible and get back the most possible. That's what Chirac and Blair are trying to do.

[CTC Command]

What do I get back?

[Malicious Intent]

From BBC News:

The prime minister is heading for the European Council's summit in Brussels.

He admits there is little chance of a deal on the EU's finances and says he will not discuss the UK's £3bn annual refund unless farm subsidies are axed.

But he says he is hopeful there will be a deal on suspending attempts to ratify the EU constitution following the "No" votes in France and the Netherlands.

Mr Blair argues there needs to be "a pause for reflection".

And he says changes to how the EU spends its money must be part of efforts to reconnect the public with the union.

.....

[Tony Blair said]: "I think there is a clear understanding now in Europe that there needs to be a far more fundamental debate about the future of Europe."

It feels strange saying it, but how could Tony Blair be anymore right? Not only is he being open to sensible discussion and actually making a sensible case for once, but he is proving that this is not a distraction from the dead constitution by bringing it right back into the picture again.

Compare that to the closed minded take, take, take from the French and Irish:

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin also said nobody could go back on the deal which safeguards farm subsidies until 2013.

He was backed by Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern, who called agricultural payments "non-negotiable" while saying the rebate was "open for debate and open for discussion".

[Excrement_Cranium]

France would have to resist surrendering to lose.

[method77]

It was one of the best speeches I have ever seen and it happened in the EU parliament after Blair's speech:

One of the most impassioned deliveries was from Daniel Cohn-Bendit, the co-president of the European Greens. He launched into an historic romp and had his microphone cut off when he went over his allotted four minutes.

"You threw down a challenge today: you said "I want to change Europe". Welcome to the club Tony. You are welcome in this job. But lets get this straight: You are not the Duke of Bedford (the 15th century regent of France); Jacques Chirac is not Joan of Arc: Mister Balkenende is not Bishop Cauchon (who led the charges against her); that was old Europe; the Hundred Years War is over. Chirac and Schröder and Blair and others need to be told: Europe is the opposite of that. The problem is that Europe cannot function within Great Britain's model; Europe cannot function within France's model; Europe cannot function within the Luxembourg or Netherlands' model... Europe's intelligence lies in finding a mix of these models. For that, Mister Blair, you can not remain Prime Minister of Great Britain; Become president of Europe, with a vision of Europe."

Socialist, liberal and Eurosceptic parliamentary group leaders praised Blair; the harder-left lectured him and conservatives told him to live up to his predecessor John Major.

[Malicious Intent]

I don't really understand that Method.

What more does Cohn-Bendit want from Tony Blair? Tony Blair is open to discussion on the rebate: In the interest of everyone in the EU

Tony Blair wants to change spending in the EU so 40% is not spent on 5% of the people: In the interest of everyone in the EU.

Tony Blair has been the most high-profile figure to stand up and say the EU is failing and the constitution is dead: In the interest of everyone in the EU.

Blair is never going to please everyone from the extreme left to the extreme right, but it annoys me that Chirac is acting like a spoilt child and Blair's name is getting dragged down with him.

EDIT: Removed a line that was antagonistic and gave the wrong impression of what i am saying.

Edited June 23, 2005 by Malicious Intent

[method77]

Actually, that speech was an answer to Blair's speech of his agenda now that UK is getting the EU presidency. As you know, every six months, another country gets the presidency

[Malicious Intent]

So what was his point? It sounds to me like he is being critical of Blair, saying he is only interested in britains interest in the EU. He is warning Blair that he cannot afford that when he is president.

He puts Blair and Chirac in the same boat comparing the situation to the 100 year war, but you cannot compare Blair's "yes, let's discuss the rebate along with the EU's spending" with "non, we will continue to pay our farmers millions and we want more english money".

What Blair says is making sense to me, therefore I cannot understand these accusations without explaination. Why does Cohn-Bendit think Blair is acting/will act selfishly?

I searched for his speach to find an answer, but couldnt find it.

[Malicious Intent]

I found this evidence against Blair:

What arguments can be made for the EU's agricultural policy?

One is that payments are no longer made in proportion to the amount of food produced, but as rewards for stewardship of the land.

Another is that the amount of money distributed as direct aid to farmers has fallen, while the amount paid as "rural development aid" - helping create jobs in rural communities - is increasing.

Furthermore, although an agreement was reached in 2002 to hold agricultural spending steady until 2013, the money paid to farmers in old member states, such as the UK and France, will slowly decrease as the amount paid to farmers in new member states slowly rises.

So even without fundamental reform of the EU budget, which the UK and Sweden have been pressing for, the amount of aid received by individual farmers will shrink over the coming years.

Not enough to convince me. We can find other, more efficient ways to support new countries. It should at least be discussed.

This case against this view is just as strong:

Why does the UK want less spent on farm subsidies and aid to poor regions?

It believes that it is unreasonable to spend 40% of the EU budget on agriculture - a sector that provides just 2% of European jobs.

It also argues that subsidies provide an unfair advantage to European farmers, as compared with those in developing countries.

Critics of the EU's agricultural policy also say there is no reason for subsidies of this kind to be paid by the EU, as they could just as well be paid by national governments.

The UK is not against paying aid to the poorer new member states, but it objected to the proposal on the table in Brussels, which proposed continuing to pay half of the regional aid budget to the wealthier member states.

[method77]

don't know what to say...

I do know thought that Blair's argument is strong

[Kooperman]

I think Tony Blair's strong support of our despised US leader has damaged his international respect. France doesn't like or trust Bush (good judgement there) and that mistrust extends over to Tony B.

[method77]

You are partly right Koop but deep down, many countries want UK out of the EU. That might explain many of the reactions towards Blair or any UK leader

...but this is -deep- politics. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. The solution is somewhere in the middle and at the end, noone is fully satisfied especially if you have 25 countries on the table and trying to get an agreement

[Malicious Intent]

Suprised to hear that people actually want the UK out of the EU. There was some fair debate if the eastern block countries should be allowed in amougst mass-immigration fears, but I've never heard anyone suggest that a country should be forced out of the EU. Perhaps people are so focused on if the UK countries should stay in, that we became short sited to if we are welcome.

Even so, wanted a country out is not a scenerio I can picture.

Anyway, lots more news on the subject:

France and other countries say a deal fixing the Common Agricultural Policy until 2013 cannot be changed.

Most reporting is broad and sweeping like this. The rebate is also fixed to that date, but blair is willing to discuss it.

BUT: I saw something in the news, but wasn't paying fall attention. Some French guy said that France would be willing to discuss farm subsidises (CAP) in the future, but Blair was trying to confuse the two issues.

Now that is interesting - confusing lots of different topics is a Blair speciality. Throw in loads of topics together so the critics dont know which way to pull first. Smoke and mirrors. Wish I could see more on that.

Meanwhile, Blair is throwing another issue into the pot. He is now claiming farm subsidise give EU farmers an unfair advantage, which is keeping Africa in poverty. Seems "poverty" is the new "terrorism". About time we changed it.

In related news, the French farmers are on the charm offensive. In a bid to convince the english that they are worth our money, they are taking another well deserved vacation to hand out food to holidaymakers in Calais, who are stuck in traffic jams. Sadly the farmers are the ones causing the jams and are costing the english even more money in lost trade. Merci.

From The Times:

“The British need to know that we are not wasters,” Christian Polen, a dairy farmer, said referring to the £6.3 billion showered on French farmers every year. Brandishing boxes full of bread and strawberries, M Polen, from nearby Arras, handed his produce out to all who found themselves in a traffic jam caused by the protest.

He told them that the CAP need not be reformed by Britain, which took over the presidency of the EU yesterday.

M Polen said that there was nothing iniquitous about the EU spending 40 per cent of its budget on farming, even though agriculture accounts for 5 per cent of EU jobs and 1.6 per cent of economic output.

Mr Blair has called for a reduction in farm subsidies — especially those that allow inefficient French farms to claim up to £100,000 a year for doing almost nothing.

Strangely the holidaymakers are not very impressed.

[Malicious Intent]

Above is the new EU logo for the UK presidency, costing a bargain £30k (€44k).

Kate Thomson of the Cabinet Office's European Secretariat explains the logo:

The idea is a metaphor for leadership, teamwork and efficiency, which is particularly appropriate for the EU, given the system of rotating leadership.

Migrating birds fly in a V formation. This is highly efficient, because all the birds in the formation, except for the leader, are in the slipstream of another bird.

Periodically the leading bird drops back and another bird moves up to take its place.

This excerpt from the BBC made me laugh

However, the Austrian newspaper Der Standard detected in the leading bird "soaring high into the air on its strong wings" the UK's own inflated image of itself.

They might have a point! I think I can see France and Germany just behind.

[Malicious Intent]

Celebrations of one of Englands greatest battle successes, where the English shore was defended from a much larger fleet of invading Spanish and French vessels, was water down thanks to PC.

At the end of a day of pomp and tradition, tall ships manoeuvred amid smoke and explosions in imitation of the action that secured British naval dominance for a century.

But the fleets, made up of ships from around the world, were referred to only as "red" and "blue" in deference to Franco-Spanish sensibilities. Music, booming from enormous speakers, was also neutral, Rule Britannia being noticeably absent. Holst's Jupiter, the music used for the hymn I Vow to Thee My Country, provided the closest encounter with patriotism.

The might of the modern military shared the Solent with thousands of yachts and pleasure dinghies as the Queen and Prince Philip reviewed the international fleet of 167 ships. Sixty-seven vessels belonged to the Royal Navy; the rest came from 35 allies, including Russia, Korea, Nigeria and Japan.

France sent its biggest warship, the 856ft nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

i would have loved to have been there.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html

[slum_goddess]

I saw something in the news, but wasn't paying fall attention.

thanks for nothing--i've been depending on this thread (and hence, YOU) to enlighten me a bit as to what's going on here. do NOT slack off again!

[Malicious Intent]

Despite being a son of William, I may be a touch bias Slum, so dont learn too much from me! I'm doing my best though. :yup:

[slum_goddess]

please! you're my best (only*) hope...i spend far too much time agonising on how the asswipe prez is fucking the country (and yours as well), leaving me no time for learning anything about UK politics

*my meatspace friends refuse to talk to me about these things anymore

[Malicious Intent]

Christian Democrats to take over Germany.

Germany left weak for EU summits.

It sounds like a Bush/Kerry coalition, but it is the Christian Democrats party the bookies are backing to take leadership in Germany.

Current Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has decided that he nor his coalition party with the Greens can rescue the failing German economy. Schroder leads the Social Democrats. The rest of the Reichstag agreed, so elections will be held a year early - September this year.

Meanwhile, Chirac's support is fading in France. Any connection between lack of government support and "Old Europe"? Probably not. Blair didn't exactly win the majority of the votes.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ld/12041249.htm

With Blair emboldened by his election "win" and being G8 and EU president, he is likely to be the man with the power come the EU Mini-Summit this Autumn.

On the other hand, if he gets too big for his boots, it will be a nasty come down for him.

This Is London reports on the mini summit:

The announcement sets the stage for a clash between nations such as France which believe in the old-style Europe of social protectionism and the more free market approach of nations such as Britain.

An informal summit had always been pencilled in for October - with a venue yet to be announced - but confirmation it would concentrate on the future of Europe endorsed Mr Blair's call for a debate on the whole direction of the EU.

I dare say Blair will not hesitate to take advantage of this opportunity and his spin doctors will be working overtime to make sure that everyone backs him - at least until it is too late to disagree.

[method77]

it's the perfect time to make those needed changes in the union. Germany's and France's leaders are "tired" and "old" so the others can take advantage of that. I sure hope they do it for our good. For all europeans.

[Malicious Intent]

Chirac and Schroder are famous for their meetings. If something important needs to be decided, they meet in private, then start trying to tell the 23 uninvited leaders what to do based on what they have decided.

For example, after the constitution collapsed, they descended on Europe to tell everyone to carry on with voting for it. Great plan - tell people to vote on something they can't have anyway.

Sticking with tradition, Chirac and Schroder had a meeting with the Russia top-dog, Putin. The meeting was to assure Putin that the EU would have a good relationship with Russia, despite the rocky relationship Russia has with some of the new Eastern member states.

The meeting was held at Kaliningrad, which has been separated geographically from the rest of Russia since the Soviet collapse. Now it’s a Russian island surrounded by the European Union following the entry of its neighbours Poland and Lithuania into the European grouping.

Part of the talks where about improving Russia's access to Kaliningrad, not that Lithuania and Poland were invited.

Bringing this back to the thread, whilst there Chirac joked, “The only thing they (the English) have ever done for European agriculture is mad cow.”

That would be quite funny if it wasn't such an insult to the amount of time the English spend at work so that the French dont have to.

Also, whilst there repesenting the EU, Chirac continued the digs at the British. There I was thinking we were allies internationally, but a French newspaper has quoted Chirac as saying, “You can’t trust people who cook as badly as that,”.

It would have been funny (it still is quite funny!) if it wasnt for the current tensions, which moves it away from being a joke and on to immaturely trying to undermine the British countries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8470933/

[Malicious Intent]

UK vs. Spain

Spain's Gibraltar EU elections case

Spain has presented arguments in the European Union's high court against a British law that allows citizens of Gibraltar to vote in elections for the EU's parliament.

Spain, which contests British rule over the territory on its southern coast, claims some Gibraltarians are not citizens of the EU and should not be allowed to vote for members of the European Parliament.

Britain changed its laws in 2003 after the European Court of Human Rights ruled it had infringed Gibraltarians' democratic rights by preventing them from voting in European elections.

Source:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=744572005

[slum_goddess]

Bringing this back to the thread, whilst there Chirac joked, “The only thing they (the English) have ever done for European agriculture is mad cow.”

Also, whilst there repesenting the EU, Chirac continued the digs at the British. There I was thinking we were allies internationally, but a French newspaper has quoted Chirac as saying, “You can’t trust people who cook as badly as that,”.

i read about this last night--i'm amazed he said that shit, the nasty fucker.

[method77]

Let's face it people. French hate British -the opposite too- and it got even worse when Blair turned into Bush's best friend. A LOT of europeans agree with Chirac