dsoslglece

Hi… In fact, that's quite a few months that I was hesitating to speak about that, since it is a site I created my self in December. I didn't want it to look as spam !… but considering the fact that you can just DL all available stuff there, and that I'll get no personnal benefits out of it, appart of the pleasure to help music to propagate, I really don't think the term would be much appropriate. Here is the story I did calculate few years ago that between 1967 and 2000, I did about (as a violinist) 1000 concerts… Maybe half of them were as member or leader of symphonic orchestras, but at least the other half were chamber music: sonatas, trios, quartets of any types, up to nonets, and playing music of all periods from middle age till contemporary… Quite a few hundreds were recorded, and, now that I'm not playing anymore, and that I discovered the Web, I feel that distributing those of them recordings with have good enough sound quality would continue the work of my whole life, and still go towards its goals. Therefore that idea to construct a site. Of course a small portion of this site is dedicated to other areas, for instance, the publication of my books, but since they are in French, and not translated, that could certainly not be the reason for talking to you about it. But a big part of it is dedicated to recorded music, known or less known, and even a complete page dedicated to totally unknown masterpieces, from known or unknown composers (Paolo Litta, George Onslow, Bernhard Molique, Ignace Pleyel, Henri Woolett, etc…). There is even music of different periods, played on original instruments (Middle-age, Renaissance, Barock), and all of it, in trying as much as possible to respect the rules of playing of each period. For instance, a series of recordings of Beethoven sonatas (vln & pno), in respecting 1800 conventions of playing (which is not generally the case any more since 1900) Of course, the site is in French, since it's my home language, but I did an English side for all pages (except the pages dedicated to my own books, or my poems)… and so, when after the index page in French (where one arrives), by clicking on the UK flag, one finds oneself onto the same page but in English, and from there, one can follow the whole route in English. Further more, from the page "reception", one can go to one page where all musical titles are visible at once, with threads, and so go directly to ones interest. From the reception page it is also possible to choose to see the newly added pieces (with dates), since I regularly add pieces as soon as I finish to clean the recordings, some of them been on old cassettes or tapes (few only from vinyls) or not to well balanced, and needing some patching. By the way, one can also find there, some recordings of that pianist I was talking about in a previous post, and where I gave some examples about Chopin's rubato. Evidently, I'm the owner of all of those, and so its free to be distributed. Another thread however is a platform where I did also put some pieces to DL free : Vuze, but for that, you'll need Azureus. My own files are under my pseudo (dsoslglece), but they are also some from others. My site HERE Vuze HERE Hope you'll enjoy it…

Hi Ben, and thank you for that fantastic thread… I went there, and true, I have now some more doubts about the fact of that waltz being "played" by Brahms… probably though, it is played by someone not later than 1900, since the style is very much like what it was at the end of 19th century. I've got my self quite a lot of recordings from old pianists or composers, and there is a consistency about all that (Stavenhagen, von Sauer, Saint-Saëns, Mahler, Grieg, Reger, Granados,d'Albert, Bussoni, Lamond, and others.)… But, to come back to that site you indicated to us, and to that fantastic work explained there, on what they did with that wax roll, I'm probably an old fool of a musician, but when I came to the last recording they presented there, that hungarian dance, reconstructed in accordance with all the data obtainable from the original wax recording, even if the work is certainly not the deepest of Brahms, even if it was played artificially and giving that sort of sound quality you would have on a electronic guitar, believe it or not, but it made me cry ! Even so, one can feel the greatness of the being and his conception, just like if he was there.

Well, exploring a bit the back yard of that forum, I arrived here, and really don't know if after that time it is still in actuality, but anyway, if you get that post (or someone else!) you are welcome to PM me about any music CD or even musical parts you'd hope to have... I don't garanty I've got it all, but I may... I spent my whole life playing for the public, so, I'm used of giving music away for the plesure of myself and the others. You for instance, mentionned Dvořák, I've got lot from him (symph, str quartets, overtures, Requiem, Opera... played by Czecks)... Bartók, I've got himself playing at many occasions (including home recordings)... but also most of his str Quartets, concerti (vln n°1 & n°2, pno...)... of course, many Barocks and classics, but only when played correctly (respecting what is written, and the correct way to do it according to the period!)... In fact, from middle-age till contemporary... And appart of all that, lot of unknow masterpieces from unknown composers (Onslow, Litta, Woolett, Lekeu, Ysaÿe...)...

Hi, quite a while ago, I did write something here about old mechanical pianos, and I mentionned that recording made by Gershwin in 1925 of his own Rhapsody in blue... He played on one of those pianos, and the accompaniment is also recorded on the the same roll, as two extra hands. And so, quite later on, about a half century, some clever conductor (Michael Tilson Thomas) got (in 1976) the brillant idea to use those rolls, and, having plugged the holes corresponding to the accompaniment, to use a live ensemble to accompany Gershwin (accompaniment exactly copied for speed and general style, on the original accompaniment)... Something like accompanying a ghost concert pianist... I must confess that I'm not normally a fanatic of jazz or similar types of musics, and that, prior to that recording, well I considered that Rhapsody, to be a bit to much of a syrupy hollywood tube... So, to discover that recording was really a revelation to me... Instead of a sort of concatenation of bits and pieces difficultly assembled (what is generally heard), when Gershwin plays it, it forms a whole; very solid indeed, and just as firmly constructed as any symphony! And, by the way, all those parts that I considered to be sirupy, well, I don't think there is time now for syrup! considering the devilish speed he is playing them... one has to put the savety belts on, and to hold on to ones hat! I don't want to say much more about it, since you'll see for yourself... just one more detail though, about that orchestration, which is the original one (todays generally known one was writen later on, also by Grofé, and for a special occasion). It is not a Symphonic orchestra, but only a small ensemble: a jazz band, with only 3 winds (but playing each a whole range of wind instruments), lot of percussions of course, and a double-bass, a banjo, a second piano, and 8 violins... I didn't put of course the whole piece, since I ignore if it is still in existence and under copyrights, but I guess that a short extract could be considered as documentation, or advertising for it (CBS)... anyway, you must feel free to PM me if some problem, or for any other thing. extrait_Gershwin.mp3 I love so much such witnesses of the past... it puts the clocks back to time again! Enjoy yourself listening to it...

Thanks Dude, I'll do it... particularly, I will talk from time to time about unknown composers (I mean great unknown masters)... after all, I did spend my life trying to make them known in presenting them to the public... so, it'll be only one more time. But, I think first, I'll try to give some examples of nineteen century great piano players... But I must first convert the sound tracks into MP3... it'll take me a bit of time. By the way, what is the rule in here about the copyrights... of course those recordings are dating from around 1912, but they have been re-recorded on vinyl some time later... but there will be only short examples... and normally, I believe that extracts shorter then 2mn (?) are OK, particularly when used as samples. Tell me if I'm wrong... And, as for the re-recording, I guess that is probably something like some museums trying to clame copyrights over their copies of paintings dating from centuries... (a picture is theoritically not copyrightable when it is ONLY a true copy).

Hello, I'd like to talk a bit, today about the Rubato in music... I said already a few words about it, somewhere, in an other post, but its concept has been so mislaid not to say perverted, that I feel the need of doing so today, and with a bit more details and examples. The word in full is normally "Tempo rubato", what in Italian means "Stolen time" (from rubare=to steal... you have in English the word "robber")... and it is exactly what it is... you steal with one hand to give it back with the other (unfortunately, it is not generally what the robbers are doing... and just as unfortunately, it is not generally what the players are doing when using a so called rubato... Of course, there are different kinds of rubatos (would be better to say rubati for the plural)... The most simple one, would be to play a passage (say a bar or maybe two) starting slower than the speed and accelerating till the end of the passage, untill one arrives faster than the general speed... and, in theory, that little exploit would have exactly the same duration than if it had been played exactly at the same speed all the way along... of course, in doing so (I said it is the simplier one), all the parts or different instruments would have played exactly the same way, and poifectly together... very simple indeed... Naturally, you also have the other way around... Of course, there is also the way of holding a note a bit longer than it's proper value, to give it more expression...Debussy did it, and I discovered that most of the time it was the signification and the way to play (in his music), the notes on top of which he marked a small horizontal line... I remarked indeed that he himself played like that those notes every time they where some... Incidentally, he was a fantastic pianist, and he also used a perfect rubato when necessary. Evidently, doing so, shouldn't affect the other parts, and you have to compensate in playing the next note (or two) shorter... But now lets talk a bit about the complete rubato... The correct one... Of course, every one's rubato IS "the correct one"... for him! ... But I mean by that, that particular rubato which has been used and described by the great musicians in the course of the centuries... Starting at the XVIIth... Emanuel Bach explains how to play his father's music (and also his own!)... he even tried to note it down... but as soon you note such a thing, well it is not anymore a rubato, but a series of syncopes!... Others did try the same thing later on, for instance Baillot a great violinist at the turn of 1800, describing Viotti, (an other violinist, contemporary of Mozart but who died a bit older though) playing one of his concerti... he noted again a whole series of syncopes for rubato... it certainly is the only way to explain it... the only wrong thing been that, doing so, one continues to refer to one only speed of beats conducting the whole thing... Mozart (he certainly new his business!) talks about it, and he said that "the left hand is the conductor, but that the right one does what it pleases it"... and that, is in fact one of the clearest statements defining the rubato. You indeed have a time continuum in one hand, and an other one going about parallel, but not quite... taking a bit time at places, and running a bit faster at others... and doing so, the differences between those two can be really minimal, much less than when going all parts together, because it is generally more perceptible... but it gives all the same a feeling of freedom and expression, but also the sensation of stability... Chopin used that way of playing, but with much mastery, and in such a way that he could play the same piece 2 or 3 times at different places of the same concert, without ever giving the feeling of repeating himself... By the way it is a well known fact about Chopin, that he always had, during his practicing, a metronome going on his piano... which fact, when you know what is the real rubato, seems not only normal, but also an essential help to keep in mind the "every one's time" when playing in one or more other times continuum... After Chopin, that art almost disappeared, and, perverted, became what was to become the fashion for the "not-to-bright-pianists" till the fifties... I mean, to play always the bass at left hand first, a tiny bit earlier , before to play the rest of the harmony... a sort of a "badoom, badoom"... Apart of that, there was certainly a wide use of not keeping with the time, but without, in the mean time, keeping an eye on it... One of the last great players to use it was Eugène Ysaÿe the great violinist (he spent few years in the states, not counting his concerts tours, but as conductor of Cincinnati orchestra), and since it had already become so unusual, people playing with him did remark it... among them, one of the pianists playing oftens with him in concert tours, Jacques Dalcroze, said that Ysaÿe would ask to his pianist to play perfectly in time, and not to follow him around in his fantasy... One conductor (I unfortunately can't remember his name), said that acompanying Ysaÿe was very simple indeed, since if he would spend a bit time in a bar, he would just come back together with the orchestra in the course of the following bar or two... Today though (appart of the cembalists, I mean the ones playing truly in the baroque style) there are unfortunately only two ways left to play: 1) Strictly in time, which puts one asleep, or for instance, when playing a Chopin waltz, makes it look like one more of those empty dancing supports... 2) with "rubato", but in today's sense, both hands glued together, which gives generally the feeling of a sick stomach. And, since I mentionned waltzes, one can imagine that some freedom taken with the melody or its ornaments (in Chopin, of course), has not necessary anything to do with the "oompahpah"... just the same way (but otherway around) that the Ompahpah of a "Wiener Valtzer" played in the proper "Wienerisch" way, that is : the first beat most of the time shorter than the two next, mustn't affect the quavers of the melody when they are six in the bar... Saint-Saëns talks about rubato, and by the way, he mentionned one of the Chopin studies as THE study to be played with that type of rubato... (I'll try to upload an example of that one...) Debussy continued, I said it earlier, but he later concentrated more on composition... And, to my knowledge, one of the last one I've heard to use it, was Rachmaninov... (and luckily, there are still quite few recordings of him around...) Interesting is the fact that probably, Rachmaninov got that knowledge (or "how-to-do") through Ysaÿe, since they performed together during some tours in the States, Ysaÿe at the end of his carrier, and Rachmaninov at the beginning of his. I will try then to upload a few things... first the Berceuse from Chopin... and here, it really is a Berceuse... (when you rock a baby to make him sleep)... you have that sort of constant wave at the left hand, coming up and down, always, and so present that you finish to forget it... you don't hear it anymore... that's the rocking of the cradle which puts you asleep... and then you have the melody, with all those little runs... but they are more like smoke... they are completely free, turning around scrolling at the slightest breath... and they stay so much out of reach... Some times, to come back crudely to the technical point of view, there is more than a whole beat difference between the two hands, but I saw some professionals needing to consult the written part to realize it... And of course, I'll try also to upload an extract of that study on rubato (the end was never recorded, since it had been made as samples)... I must say, it is here a quite different use of rubato, since here it is used to differenciate the melodies, starting a bit before the time, or a bit after, but without altering the rigour of the repeated chords... Evidently, I'll acknowledge here the pianist doing that : Christine Hartley-Troskie... I know her in fact for quite long time, and even played concerts with her quite oftens in the past, and she even comes some times to visit me in France, since she lives now in Florida, and I must say, in the course of her carrier, I could see her searches to achieve those goals, working toward them with such determinism, and some time more than despair too... but today I can say that she finally arrived close enough (one never completely arrives at the place of ones goal!)... There is of course more than those few extracts of a CD, but if some one would be interested for more of this, there is more on eD2k and Gnutella... and some time soon probably on Torrents also... So, enjoy those extracts. Cheers NB: Sorry to had to cut those pieces like French Polony, but the max upload is 2 MB... lucky I didn' have to upload Wagner's Tetralogy or Messiaen Saint Franciscus!! Berceuse_1.mp3 Berceuse_2.mp3 Berceuse_3.mp3 _tude_1.mp3 _tude_2.mp3

Hello, all of you... I guess I've got a nice surprise for you, since I believe it is rare and unknown... In fact untill I discovered it few years ago, I didn't know that such experiments were made as early as that, since Brahms died in 1897 from a liver cancer... so, it had to be recorded before that date, and, probably during his last tour in England... I have no idea where it comes from, but I do believe it is not a fake... for the voice, I never heard him, but for what the playing is concerned, I can assure you that it is not only a great musician playing, but also one from that period... and let me tell ya that it has nothin' to do with the scratches on the recording (I removed quite a lot of them with filters!)... but it has much to do with the way to play that music... in fact, two waltzes (one of them is THE Waltze from Brahms!). After all that, I hope the post will accept the two files Brahms_talks.mp3 Brahms_valses.mp3... well it seems to have worked! Cheers

Well, I don't know much about those pop intruments, and the only guitar I'm familiar to is the classical guitar (modern, XIXe or even earlier ones) I even constructed few years ago, a copy of a XIX century one... but after all, the essentials, in playing Bach on any instrument, even if the original instruments or always preferable, the essential is to respect the text, AND respect the way to read it (since the signs of those days don't always have the same significations today) So, for what that recording is concerned, it stays rather close to Bach, and in that way, is rather good... I'm just asking myself a question, looking at that boy playing... what is he fiddling with his both hands on the fingerboard ?... It looks like he is playing the top voice with the left hand, and the bottom part with the right one... but in this case, with what is he plucking the strings, for that he would need a complete hand, since there is quite a lot of notes, including simultaneous ones... added to that, I believe that the strings of those electric guitars are in metall, and rather thick, much harder than gut or even todays nylon, and I bet one needs a plectrum to pluck them, and a plectrum doesn't seem to be very favorable to polyphonic music... unless, on those instruments, the sring would starts to emit a sound as soon as it is pressed on the fingerboard... true I never thought of that possibility, but it should be quite feasable with electronics......

Hello Shawn, you know, it all depends of what and for what purpose each change was made, and also, change by relation to what... I remember for instance, quite a few years ago, I asked, in a conservatoire where I was in charge of the orchestra, for some of the viola pupils to play a viola barok concerto with the orchestra, expecting her to come with Stamitz or the like... So, she arrived with a Haendel concerto (?) never heard of haendel having ever written a viola concerto... but he wrote so much... I looked at the part... gosh, what a mess ! there where certainly some things from Haendel (and much more indeed than there is from Albinoni in "his" adagio composed by someone around 1952, on a 4 bars bass from Albinoni) but all the same it was so far from Haendel's style... for one thing, the viola part was using technical tricks about to come at least a century later on the viola... and the harmony was certainly not really from that period... Since that girl had already put some work on the piece, I finally decided to keep it, but I had to spend lot of work on it... in fact it was more rewriting it... and I dont know how to number the amount of changes I did... but all the same, I can assure you that it was more "original" by then than before... Some time, the musicians in search of the truth have the hell on weels to go through, to find their way between all tracks, false tracks, misleading ones, additions, substractions, changes, all made by editors (by the way, in english, it is symptomatic that the word edition, or edit, has also the meaning of changing!) with the best of intents in their efforts to render the piece unrecognizable for later generations of players (and also some time to be able to cash some rights on that new publication :mellow: ) Of course, I may add, as a remark on the original post, that a judge, to give an opinion on such a subject, and even more, to take a legal decision, should have more than a serious knowledge on music, art, and on what consists a work of art... which is probably never the case. For what de Lalande is concerned, I believe most of the originals should be kept at the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, and that should be the best source for it.... they are cool for what their old manuscripts are concerned, and rather like people to play them... It's after all their patrimony... And I always found them very helpful when I played some Claude Gervaise publications, or Litta "Le lac d'amour", or a Lesueur's mass.

Thanks a lot, but, squeezing me brain for hours to get an answer, I came about to that conclusion my self!... The only think is that Shawn didn't say either what it's supposed to be... after all it could be an automated machine to pop up the corn... accompanied with some sort of music... by the way, and to speak of something completely different, I read that you have a bad flu... if it happens again, make yourself a box-wood leaves decoction (40g per liter put in cold water, boiled for a while and let to cool down a bit), and drink a glass or two of it, and then, go to bed and swet all night... if you do that at the first symptoms, your flu disappears instantly. (box-wood leafs are a natural strong anti-virus... a sort of a norton, but better than norton!)... generally one can also and in addition, drink some elder-flower tee... it tastes not to good (something like cat pee), but is very efficient to chase all the bugs like bacills cocs, streptococs, etc... which are oftens accompanying a flu... Good recovery!

Thanks, your Dudeness... but what's that?... first view and listening, I'd say it's interesting... but since there ain't no explaination 'bout where it comes from, what it's made of, by whom and for what use... if it really is a machine, or a video trick... it stay very mysterious... It first looks like a machine, but there seems to be some added stuff when it starts to move... (those little things in the air dancing from one tube to the next...) which seem to be more from the video or cartoons realm, making it appear more as one of those automated boxes that played music when opened, and having some sort of marionets or puppets or whatever it was, moving or dancing on top of it... So, please gi'me the clue... thanks

Well, thanks for the thread, Shawn, but I could only guess it is some sort of playing machine, maybe the sort of thing they did in the late XIX century to replace a full orchestra... but unfortunately I couldn't download it or even see more than the one picture of it, since it said the link has expired!... if it is the sort of think I believe, they also tried to construct such apparatuses back at the XVIIIe, with mechanic string quartet playable from a keyboard, and, around 1890, full symph orchestras, with winds, strings and percussions...

Hello all, I'd like to bring to the knowledge of many the fact that mechanic "pianers" used in saloons before the turn of the 1900, are only a low quality product, compared with what came just little bit after it. Mechanical devices had been in use since the XVIIIe century to reproduce as well as possible the popular music, (in those days, popular din't mean low quality, it just meant what it says: liked by many)... and so, music boxes, "serinettes" (to teach to birds to sing popular melodies), mechanical organs... where built to play music... they were working generally on the same principle: a cylinder on which little pins were planted, and, when turning, each pin at its turn opened a pipe where air could then blow... Entire books have been written on the art of putting those pins at the right place, completed by entire theory of the music and the way to play it, since those persons manufacturing the music boxes or mechanical organs were not necessarily musicians. That only would be priceless since it gives for todays musicians the way to read the music of those centuries (the signs not having kept the same meaning till today)... but those devices when they are in good condition, or reconditionned, give us an irreplaceable testimony about what was done, for instance, rytmically... playing for example some known Lulli's menuet much faster then used in the XX century, and playing unevenly the quavers, much like in the way you, americans are playing the jazz with a "swing"... Also, there is somewhere for instance (I don't know if it is still published) a recording on a mechanic pipe organ, of a pupil of Haendel... yes!... Well, not to difficult after all to plant the pins on that cylinder in a way that it would just play like that organist would play the piece... and it was always possible to correct it if some note came to early or to late... and to ask to the player what he thought of it... So, what we have today, is a true image of that playing... On the recording in my possession, they are many pieces from the XVII and early XVIII, including some Haendel organ concerti... by the way, it is most interesting to listen to it, and for instance, I have in memory one of the movement, an Allegro (I think), which is written as a succession of chords in quavers and minimes, like a choral... but, in that recording, the player (and don't forget he was a pupil of Haendel self) adds ornaments... I mean that, for each chord, one of the notes (never at the same place of the harmony) has a trill or a mordent (today, trill and mordent are about the same, but in those days, the trill was from the upper note and the mordent from underneath)... and so, it gives to the whole piece a sort of a vibration, it makes the chords being alive and progressing forwards... instead of being just one boring progression... Karl philip Emanuel Bach, speaking of the improvised ornaments between the chords or important notes of a melody, (they were always added to the music, like in jazz today) said that they should be like the Ivy, the vine-vierge and chevre-feuille binding the pillars of a monument... But, let us come back to the mechanical music instruments... and keyboard instruments in particular... many experiments had been made in the course of the XIX century too, and so, they found a way to have the pianos keys put in movement thanks to paper rolls: It works on depression, that the clever trick. The paper roll is neetly pressed against, and passes in front of something looking like a thick pipe where a row of small holes are were drilled horizontally. In fact, each one of those holes corresponds to a note of the keyboard, and is the opening of a tiny pipe going into the mechanic. When the paper roll is applied on front of those holes, they are perfectly shut, and no air is allowed in. And so, thanks to the pedals (like an harmonium) a depression is created inside those tiny pipes... This depression keeps shut for each pipe, a sort of a small box acting like a relay... I mean when one of those boxes opens, it opens a tab and some air goes then through an other pipe (with air pressure this time), and gives movement to one of the piano's hammers.... for instance, if you use the pedals and pump it, but without having any paper roll, you'll hear all the notes at once... four people sitting at once on the keyboard!... and if you do the same but with a roll, and in a place of the roll where there is no hole in the paper, there aint no sound. One hole at the right place gives the right note, and the duration of the sound depends of the length of the hole... Now, concerning the intensity of the sound, there where different systems, but all depending of extra holes on the roll, detto for the use of the piano pedals (not the one of those mechanic pianos, to pump air ! but the ones of the proper pianos: right one to keep the sound, and left one to play only on one string for each note)... So, those pianos improved, and did really start to be faithfull to their originals shortly after 1900... and, to record the pianist playing, they used an other piano, working the other way round, where a little pencil would come down on an plain paper roll (no holes on it), and mark a line all the time the pianist would keep that note down (there was one pencil per note)... parallelly, they used a sort of vibrating device (ancestor of the mic, which would mark with an other pencil the vibration of each note, the widest vibration being of course the loudest. And over all that, there was the ear of the specialist (also musician) who could remember what he heard, and in the last verification when everything had been made but before to finalize it, the pianist himself... Some great pianist of the past, where very impressed with that and declared that it gave them the feeling to ear them self again... I must say that the first time I heard such a recording, it really gave me the goose flesh... so much I had the feeling to really ear and feel the presence of a great one every body thought dead and forgotten. And so, today, dating of 1912, they are some "recordings" of Debussy, Mahler, Richard Srauss, de Falla,Grieg, Saint-Saëns, Max Reger for the composers, and for the pianists : von Sauer, d'Albert, Busoni, Paderewski, Careño, Pugno, and even Stavenhagen which was a pupil of Liszt and performed one of the Rhapsody "the way Liszt played it"... (to quote only few!) and those "recordings", are recorded today (rather yesterday!), from pianos having been reconditionned, and in stereo... just like a normal concert where the piano plays by himself. I mean, much much better than the first wax rolls used in those days to record music, when one had only few minutes to play and where they had to remove the felt of the piano hammers to ear the sound on the record !... Of course, the wax could also record something else than the piano, for instance the voice... I've got so the recording (one of the first recordings!!) of Brahms (died in 1897) talking shortly, and saying in english to an english public "I am Master Brahms... Johannes Brahms", and then playing two of his waltzes.... but of course, the whole being full of scratches and surface noises... Some of those pianos, for instance the Welte-Mignon system (built on Steinweg pianos, the german original make of the today excellent Steinway) which was probably the best of those days, disappeared after the first war, the factory in Germany having been destroyed in the 1917 bombings. But other makes came, and still refined more the technology, and so, some recordings had been made till around 1935, with for instance Rachmaninov playing... few hours of music, lot of his pieces and some from others... He was a fantastic pianist... one of the last ones to master totally the true rubato... that rubato coming from the barocks (many great musicians of those days tried to explain how to do it, including KPE Bach and Mozart), it disappeared a bit at the beginning of the XIXe century (or rather became sort of decadent or perverted, being wrongly made, and to become what it is today...), but it was then still in use by the few who knew how to do it... So people where bepuzzled by Chopin using it with such mastery that he could play at the same concert, the same piece three times (beginning, middle and end) without bein accused of repeating him self... That's the rubato which consist to have the right hand going faster or slower, according to the music, but the left hand keeping about the proper speed, the two hands having some time more then a beat difference!... By the way, Saint-Saëns (he knew so many things that old bird! and published even articles in astronomy revues!) talks also from that rubato, and speaks of one of the Chopin studies that he called the model of perfect rubato study... Well, I may be a bit far now from the Piano-rolls... but not that much, if one considers that they are for some of them, the living witnesses of that way of playing... some, of course, with a bit extravagance (paderewski etc...) but I would say that they are the same sort of fakes today... and after all Paderewski was a good pianist for a prime minister... one couldn't say the same from some of todays clowns, and he had such a good figur to be able to turn on all his girls-fans and ladies-groupies... Well I want to quote one more thing, and sepecially for you, Americans... Do you know that your famous one: Gershwin, has played on those pianers ? he recorded the "Rapsody in blues". Of course, he recorded it four hand with someone playing the orchestra parts underneath... And so, some clever fellow imagined to plug all the holes pertaining to the accompaniment, living only to be played the solo piano part, and then to record that, but in playing together the accompaniment on proper living instruments. To be more interesting, he used as orchestra, the original version of that piece, for a small group of musiciens (3 winds but playing many instruments, 8 strings, and a cohorte of jazz band type percussions) the known version of todays for symphony orchestra having been made a bit later by Ferde Grofé (the composer of great cañyon suite) It is most interesting to listen to it, especially in reason of the tempi... Gershwin's tempi!... I must confess that, prior to that, well, I considered that piece like something a bit soupy, and as a conglomeration of bits and pieces without much as unity or structure... But now, I really discovered that, played how it should be, it makes a whole thing, it says something... and as for the soupy feeling, well, it comes only when the conductors and pianists believe that blues means slow... but when Gershwin plays it, some time more than twice the speed generally used, at the limit some time of the instrumental possibilities... and then still taking the luxury to accelerate... We say in french: "ça décoiffe"... something like "it blows your hair" or "it takes of your head-dress"... I ignore if that recording still exists, it was an old vinyl, and the conductor and organiser was Michael Tilson-Thomas and the Colombia Jazz Band, and of course as a soloist: G. Gershwin in person. Any way, if you are interested you can look for it (CBS 76509)... maybe, one day if its not published anymore, I'll put it on the net...

I'm sorry, Excrement_Cranium if my punctuation is not correct, but you must forgive a poor Frenchman to make such mistakes, I'm not quite sure yet of the way English punctuate a text... all I know, is there are much less comas than in French... And, as for the separation, I prefer generally to start the first line more to the right (but that doesn't work on posts), and to use only the jumpin' a line for more important alineas separation... Apart of that, what I mentionned about thought and brain was just a simple remark, and of course, you are free to have other beliefs, together with the psychs... to me, anyway, the proof that one can alter the comportement from someone with changes in the brain (chemically or surgerycally), is just like altering the comportement of a car by changing the connexions in the board... but the driver is still beyond that... but I do not wish to develop more of that thought on here, since it is quite far fetched from the original post... Now, to come back to Mozart... and what you said, concerning his music... true, erasers where not very much in use (there where some type of erasers though, but not in rubber!), but generally, people would cross out their mistakes (Like Beethoven)... Apart of that, I'm speaking from Mozart's manuscripts (not first editions)... which are free, MOST OF THEM, of any mistake. In addition, true, Mozart changed some time, some of his works, but those were never "corrections" of mistakes. For instance, there are different versions of some of his symphonies... but to understand that, you must put yourself back in the spirit of the eighteen century... There was not, like today, a cult for the artworks from the past (I don't mean that was a better way!)... A work was composed for a certain occasion, and then, left in the top of a cupboard... and, if some time, Mozart for instance, a bit short in time and having to produce a new work for a new occasion, did remember a symphony written long ago, and decided then to use it again, it wouldn't be without changing some things in it, removing or adding some movements in it... But again, here, we are discussing Mozart, and that is, I believe, far away from that kid by whom the post was started... By the way, I never said he was not exceptionnal, nor gifted, nor worth of interest... I only said I'd like to hear his music to be able to judge by myself... The important thing being to know if his music is great, and not if it is great for having been written by a kid... One more remark... be careful of "music scholars"... very oftens (not always though) they are like the good souls talking about women and family without having been even married nor in love once in their life... "music scholars" have rarely been in the heart of music, have seldom been able to play it, and try to express it... most of the time, they have learn only what to think of it and what to say about it, from some other scholars having preceded them... they may be good for collecting data about musicians and their time, for history, but rarely for discussing music and its content.

Well, do you really believe that the brain has something to do with thought ? apart of transmitting it from spirit to body... I know, the psychs ( ) say so, and for them, the thought is a sort of emanation of the brain... they are the ones who invented that stupid thing about artist ("sain can't be, nevrotic I'm, mad Shouldn't be")...they even tried very hard since Einstein's death to find WHAT in his brain was different !... I read few years ago some rapport 'bout it, saying that they didn't find yet, but that surely they would do... just one tiny question : if the brain generate the thoughts, then it records also all souvenirs, it is in the rate of 25 pictures per sec, including all perceptions (the whole 52 perceptions), even if that is recorded at the molecular level, it would need a very very big nut to record only a dozen years of it! True I agree with what method77 said, I would be cautious before to speak about Mozart (his first 4 or 5 symphonies written before the age of 9), or even Mendelssohn, or why not Rossini too who wrote his string quartets (with Dbass) at the age of 12... Mendelssonh quartets also where written at that age, (ahd also summernight's dream !) and all of those pieces are not only beautifully written, and with complete mastery, but also they can stand as models... and, most important, when one listen to them nobody thinks: "beautiful for a kid"... those pieces could have been written by one of the contemporaries (for instance, even if Mozart first symphonies seem to some "experts" simpler than the following ones, it's not because of been 8 or 9 yo, it's only because he started from what the style was at that moment, and his first symphs are just as simple as the ones of Emmanuel, or christian Bach that he admired very much...) So, maybe it's the case with that kid... but I would like to hear some of his symphonies before anything else and surely not listening what a paperazzi or a TV speaker has to say about it... Apart of that, for the fact of hearing first the whole piece in ones head, is rather normal... Not all composers talk much about the way they create their works, and also all aren't working the same way, but some ones mentioned it like Berlioz who said that during a night, he heard once a complete symphonic movement but it had disappeared the next morning... and again, Mozart... when you look his manuscripts, it is just like a perfect copy from a finished manuscript... nothing wrong had been erased or crossed out, even orchestra parts... because, starting to write it, he knew exactly where he was going... on the opposite, Beethoven was turning each little bit of tune or theme in his head, even singnig it aloud (rather screaming according to witnesses!) until it was judged by him to be perfect for it's use and place... By the way, you'll find the same similitudes with painters, poets or writers... and all of you, if you even did once built a new garage in your house, or a piece of furniture for your lounge, you surely know exactly in advance what it'll look like when it'll be finished!... :rolleyes:

Well, true, He's a real great one... I've play in the seventies and with real pleasure, a quintett from him that had lot of spunk! and a trio for hrn, vln & cello, and, more recently some duets for violin and viola... for the little story, he was contracted to compose six of such duetts for some noblelty, and, having finished only three of them, became sick, and so, he asked to his good friend Wolferl, I mean Wolfgang-Amadeus (but it's a bit long, and anyway, nobody called him like that!), and so, Mozart composed and added three duetts for him... Talkin' about unknown composers, I mean, real great ones, but that nobody knows (or very few), there are lot of'em... I spent my whole life trying to bring some to light, and each time, the public was so pleased and surprised... (Onslow, Woolett, Boïeldieu THE SON, Molique, Lesueur, Litta...) I'll give some more names later, and probably will talk further 'bout them in further posts of their own... Cheers

Hi, Eclectica... I know, it's long time since you posted that message, but I still feel I'd like to answer something... Of course, I don't want to discuss about you liking or not this or that... how you do know, that sort of choice is only a matter of personnal taste, experiences (good or bad), understanding also, and, in with understanding comes of course knowledge (learned or not)... I count for no importance the type of cultural environnement one is coming from or one is used to... and, over all those reasons, that big liberty of thought and conviction included in your own US laws (a great thing!). No, I just would like to make a few remarks... You mentioned first, the fact of the public at concerts, wearing suits and so on, and being there only for the appearence... well, that is quite possible, and, around the 70th, I myself was very much campaigning for that sort of freedom, since, it is true that the costume is not important to listen to music or see a painting... Only, in the same way, you don't need to be in costume to take your sweet heart in your arms... but some time, for occasions, you may just wish to take a nice shower and wear something little bit more formal than usual, maybe for his/her birsday (dunno what is your gender!), or wedding's date, or even just for the surprise... I must say, I'm a chamber musician (Violin & pno, str. quartet etc), and I did my 1000th concert around the year 2000. I like to play unformally, for an unsophisticated audience, but, playing a formal concert in penguin suit puts it in a different dimension, even if, like I always did, I tried even though to establish a more direct and unformal contact with the public, presenting the pieces I was going to perform, and very oftens joking a bit, of course, not tavern jokes, but keeping with place and circomstances, and having the public even laughing quite loud some time... I felt that it was a good preparation for them to relax a bit, and to put them in good condition to listen to the composers... Now, that a part of them was only here for the other to see them, that is quite possible, and I aggree, there are certainly some in that condition, but my goal has always been to bring the music to all of them and make them listen to it... (it is becoming an habit to have music all the time, and I can't say it's bad, but it can become an habit then, not to listen to it), so I tried always to pull peoples attention to the music I forwarded to them... And I must say that, quite a few times, peoples came after the concert, saying that they never had experienced such thing... I've got a particulary good example of it... That was a private concert in a castel organised for tourists guests, some of them having no experience of classical... all in ladeedaa suits and dresses... The concert was in a salon, and we where playing with my wife the Kodaly sonata for vln & cello, and I could have touch the audience with my bow, so close they were... after that piece wich was the last, that women came... never been in a concert before, and, sitting just twoo feet away from me, had received the music full blast in the chest (I must admit it is a very powerful piece) and, I tell you, till the dinner following, she looked stoned! sort of not here!... and, I assure you, it was not put up! An other occasion, I was still a student then, and some friend just out of the Paris conservatoire (he now has made a carrier as violinist first, and finally as a conductor), was playing in a small village in the Alpes near Thonon, for the restauration of a chapell... and there was here in among the public, an old mountaneer, a shepherd, and he listen through that Bach unaccompanied... just with eyes wide open, and, at the end of it, He couldn't restraint to exclaim; "qu'c'est beau" ("How beatiful it is!"), you know, just remembering it, brings tears to my eyes! Of course, probably he didn't know why, but the message had passed through to him... People can come to concerts or Art exhibitions, or Church... to be in the good part of the correct thinking and so on... but in the end, what importance, the principal is that they at least try to do it and maybe one day, something will happen to them... they will discover Beethoven, Mozart, or a God... That sort of thing is so much depending on circomstanced and individuals ! I know of a young one (10 years ago) that I helped to get in "la Sorbonne" in musicology class... He had been a punk-guitarist till the age of 18, member of an amateur group called "Jesus and the coyotts"!!! and he wanted to become a music teacher in highschools so, he had to learn something... As part of his training, he had to listen for that course, to some music he never listen to before, and he took home a lot of CDs from libraries... 3 month later, he was a complete junkie to Bach, Beethoven, Tchaïckovski, but even Berio and Boulez!... and when his friends from his former punk group asked him to note down one of their tunes for the SACEM... coming back afterwards, he told me that he was so surprised to realise that this music was so empty, and the fact that he found it now so ennoying! For what you say about symphony music, I saw that you very wisely said "to me", and "I prefer", which is your total rights... you know, some ones like a big plate of "Sauerkraut", with lot of sausages and smoked pork etc, or a "Cassoulet" from Toulouse, with broad beans, mutton, porc, goose, cooked for 5 hours in an oven till a crust forms on top, that is pushed down 17 times before to serve it... yeah, its very good and you should try it once... but some prefer Crayfish "À la Parisienne", cold, presented by two on a serving plate preferably silver, facing each other, the feelers vertically tied together with a big decorative rubbon, and the bodies filled up with cold vegetable-macedoine with mayonnaise, the flesh disposed on top as medallions with truffles slices, and all glistering under a coat of jelly... Well that wonderfull to, but so different. To come back to the orchestra, some pieces may be just clever, but believe me, when a real great composer writes a symphony, it is far more than cleverly put!... You know, I did at the beginning of my carrier, played for 7 years in orchestras (Symphonies, but also opera, and ballet) and for the last 10 years, appart of my concerts, I used to be also the concert master of a philharmonic orchestra... of course, my prefered music always was and still is chamber music, but there can be such a power in a symphonic orchestra playing a powerful piece... And as for listening to it as a background music... I would say that musics to be listen as a background can't be to "talkative" I mean it really has to be music not saying very much, or you may commit mistakes in whatever you are trying to do on the side... Have you ever try to listen a music (any one) in the way you would listen to a play, or to a poem... I mean, listen to the phrase, and following it, getting the answers to it, the way it evolves, arrives to certain conclusions, changes it's mind, starts a new subject... I mean just what would happen in theater or text of litterature... I now, there aint any words with it, but it's made the same, it follows the same rules, it talks the same way, the same language: the language of the spirit. But of course you must be aware of it, since it is not always presented to you on a plate... St Ex. said: "the essential is invisible for the eyes, one sees well only with the heart" and it is also true to the earing! For your appreciation of Glen Gould, I can only aggree with you, but possibly not completely for the same reasons... You know, to me, the interpreter of music has only THAT role of an interpreter: Translater. Music is written, and some one has to translate it in sounds for everyone to be able to enjoy it... On one side, you've got a composer, which hopefully has something to say, and on the other, you've got a public (one person, or 1000 times one person), and the only role of a player, is to translate what the first one said for the second to receive that com. as exactly and faithfully as possible. That's all! Of course, you've got lot of clowns which are trying to transform as much as possible what has been said, to make them self so visibly present that one can only forget about the original message... it can take the form of not respecting what has been written, or in making all sorts of tricks or grimaces, pulling faces or anything which would attract the attention on himself more than on the music... that's of course where our Glen Gould comes exactly... that he needs to put his fingers in mineral water before to play, fine, but there is no use in doing that on stage... Of course, here again, there can be a line not to easy to draw... artists are human after all, even the greatests, and some time they can come down to such tricks... Liszt was known to add some very brilliant arpeggios and looking at the ladies at the same time to judge the effect... an other time, he fainted before the end of a new piece... simply he didn't had the time to achieve it... but after all, it was Liszt... and when Steibelt (a bit earlier around 1800) resorted to such things, it was only ridiculous and Beethoven could well be fed up!... So, please, don't judge the pianer from that pianer player... Rachmaninov whas a fantastic player, and there are some excellent recordings of him (including on Ampico piano rolls), and there are a few reasonably good pianists today... Of course, I do like the harpsichord, but you can't play Beethoven, Brahms, or prokofiev on a harpsichord!... I know, it would be a humoristic answers to the pianist playing Bach and Mozart on a modern piano (even if Mozart wrote some pieces for pianoforte, his pianoforte was in fact so close to the sound of a cembalo, that even a harp would be closer to it than a modern piano!)... But again, here I would say that it is also a question of personnal taste... You can see in what I wrote earlier, that I entirely aggree then, with your opinion on the position of the player, compared to the one of the composer... and I think the fact to be myself a player gives even more weight to it. There is only one little mistake you are doing here, and that is not a question of opinion I think. That is when you say that one could synthetize etc... You know, I've been doing recently some heavy studying and working about and with computors, and in particular about the processing of sounds... Having decided to distribute on the net quite lot of the few 100 of recorded concerts I did, and considering that those where live recordings on tape or even on cassettes, dating for some of them back to the 70th, and not in poifect conditions always... they had to be revised... An other thing is that having been asked recently to compose some pieces for a friend of mine, harp teacher in an other town, neading to ask her some tips about certain places in those pieces, and having edited the music through an excellent program, I made her listen trough the phone to the pieces, using for that one of the supposed to be best programs, not synthetizing but using real sound of instruments (strad an so on)... It was good enough for that purpose, and for the sound of a harp, but sincerely, about the sound of a violin, it could have been a lovesick bagpipe... I'm only please the real fiddle doesn't sound like that I would have choosen as a kid to learn the triangle! That is only about the sound, but now, talking about the interpretation of the music!... even if you'd use all sort of trickkery from those types of programms... "human playing and so on... a good student with only few years of studying could do far better not only for what the sound is concern, but for transmitting an emotion. To transmit an emotion, the emotion must be here in the first place... and you can't have that out of a machine... of course, you can take each sound separately, organise it, in relation to the other, what is on top of it, underneath, before and after, organize each and every sound like that... you could manage to produce something excellent, but in that case, YOU would be the player... I mean, you would have just been doing what does the player recording a piece... with the only difference that it is faster to just take ones fiddle and to play a piece from beginning to end with whoever plays with you, than to do a huge puzzle assembling, sound by sound, of that same piece... As a resume for that last thought, I would just add that, not like the secretary writing his bosses texts on a register, the player must give life to those texts in front of him... and, doing it, I believe that he must put all hes efforts to come as close as possible from the way the composer played or would have play it. He must really try to impersonize that composer or the style of that particular contry or time... and then PUT EMOTIONS in it... not his owns but the ones included in the music... I did once a concert of Renaissance music (playing then the Renaissance fiddle and rebec!), and there were some poems included, from Ronsard, du Bellay etc... At one moment, during the dressrearshall, the producer addressed to the actress after she finished to read a poem (a youg girl just out of conservatoire), she had been crying in saying it (it was a sad poem about departure), and she was still crying and sobbing for a minute or so answering to the producer, so much she had been in her role... true tears and all... but she was not upset herself about anything... just had lived completely the communication... and I tell ya, that communication certainly passed!